Edge on John Cena and The Rock

[TDK]

<table><tr><td>Edge on John Cena and The Rock

"The worst thing is apathy and there is definitely not that. So I think a lot of it too, is John is kind of handcuffed. It's like there needs to be that guy and he is that guy. So it's like you want me to be this guy, then I'm going to be that guy and I'm going to do it with total commitment and do it, and if you don't like it then that's what I got to do. I think that's where it's kind of at.

I think there is a lot more riding on it than just half the crowd in Portland reacting a certain way. You have to look at it from Vince's (McMahon) perspective, which no one seems to do anymore. Whether it's guys sweating Rock coming back. I'm like are you kidding me? It's great. I think it's awesome. If you get bumped off Wrestlemania because of The Rock, guess what? You weren't good enough. It's up to you to stay on the show.

TDK's Take:

Completely agree about the Rock's return, but did anybody catch that stuff about the guy not being the guy except when he is the guy unless he was never the guy bit?

Still doesn't explain why Cena basically no sells everything by just standing there smirking the whole time but hey, maybe that's all the 'guy' can do when he's busy being the guy. ^o)</td><td>

</td></tr></table>

 

[stylesismilo]

I honestly don't get the part about Cena being the guy but not being the guy but has to commit being the guy. *BRAIN EXPLODES*

 

[Tired]

It's like there needs to be that guy and he is that guy. So it's like you want me to be this guy, then I'm going to be that guy and I'm going to do it with total commitment and do it, and if you don't like it then that's what I got to do. I think that's where it's kind of at.

a F**K?:

Nadimmania? Is that you?

 

[Deleted User]

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>It's like there needs to be that guy and he is that guy. So it's like you want me to be this guy, then I'm going to be that guy and I'm going to do it with total commitment and do it, and if you don't like it then that's what I got to do. [/quote]

Translated: John Cena works hard, and big ole meany faces shouldn't boo him because of how darn hard he works.

Did I mention I've never been a big Edge fan? Worst running hug, I mean spear, in wrestling history.

 

[Tired]

To be honest, I am a little surprised that Edge has stood up for the Rock coming back at all.

I only recall the Rock taking on Edge ONCE. And at that time, Edge was a firm tag team mid-carder, while the Rock was feauding with the WWE champion. All of their other encounters have been tag team or handicap matches. And in every case, it was the mid-carders (team Edge) versus the main-eventers. They never really crossed paths in a significant way.

But then again, it took the WWE 5 years to get Edge into the main event. After Team RECK split, they pushed Edge constantly. Between 2001 and 2006, Edge won multiple secondary titles, the King of the Ring tournament, multiple ladder and TLC matches and the first Money In The Bank match. He held the tag team championship with Hulk Hogan, feuded with Kurt Angle, destroyed Evolution, Chris Benoit, Shawn Michaels, and much more. And after that, he still couldn't look like a main-eventer.

After all of that, none of the main eventers wanted to have a top tier feud with him. Some already had a feud that didn't draw much interest. And the others knew that a feud would draw little interest. It took an 18-month long feud with John Cena with the WWE Championship to FINALLY make Edge look like a main-eventer.

So from that respect, I understand Edge defending Cena. Edge would never have become a 10 time major champion if he didn't have that overly long feud with Cena. However, he was not a major rival to Cena or Rock. So when fans go onto WWE online or whatever, and they look up the Cena or Edge back catalogue, they will not see many Edge matches. So he does not have much in the way of royalties to gain from this. And being unable to physically compete, he is excempt from the WM bonuses that performers received (he will get a set amount for an appearence). So supporting the Rock will NOT lead to a payday for Edge.

He did make an interesting point about people being bumped off WrestleMania because they weren't good enough. But how does he explain McCool and Layla making the pay-per-view last year, considering that all other Divas (including the only title holder) were all bumped off for Trish Stratus and Snooki?

The Rock has had one match since 2004, and it BOMBED. So realistically, the Rock is not good enough to be on the card either.

 

[Deleted User]

The Survivor Series matched bombed? I thought when the actual numbers came back, it was a lot more than they thought.

They've been pushing Edge since he was in the TLC matches. Sure, it was mid-card pushes, but they were pushes. Remember "Edge Heads"? Me either. I always knew they were grooming him for the main event, and when he got there...... boy did I just not care.

Edge has the look. That's about it. I never enjoyed his mic work, I never enjoyed his matches.

Hall of Fame? Give me a break.

 

[Tired]

Edge has never had a good match. He has had a lot of fine and watchable matches. And he has had some showstealers. But nothing in between. And that would become one of his biggest problems. Edge either gave a little, or he gave everything. When he gave everything, he got hurt. And the high number of cage and ladder matches in his career really damaged his physical health.

But to be honest, he has more of a claim to HOF than the Rock has.

 

[Deleted User]

I will disagree. His match against Angle at Backlash (I do believe 2002) was a great match, and his personal best, in my opinion.

More of a claim to the HOF than the Rock...... okay, I'll bite. Why is that?

 

[Tired]

First of all, Rock was hired strictly based on two things; a) Vince McMahon heard that Rocky Johnson's kid had just started wrestling. And b) Vince McMahon was a massive fan of High Cheif Peter Maivia. McMahon had never seen Rock. I don't mean just in a match, he had no idea what he looked like in any form. Just that he would probably be black. But McMahon knew that Rock had been training for the ring for less than a year, and had yet to have his first match. And Rock only did it because he had no chance in the NFL.

Edge, meanwhile, always wanted to be a professional wrestler. He went to a wrestling school, and then worked the independent circuits in Canada and the US. He missed the "shortcut" schools, locations and big name companies. He auditioned for the WWE himself. How many first-generation Canadian wrestlers of his size back then made it to the WWE without going through the Dungeon, Japan, WCW or ECW? Not many.

The Rock has held 7 major championships in the WWE, 9 if you count the WCW World Title. Edge has won 11.

The Rock has been Intercontinental champion twice. Edge has held 5 Intercontinental championships, making him one of the most succesful title winners. And he is the reigning (co)Hardcore Champion.

The Rock is a 5 time tag team champion within the WWE. Edge has won 12, more than anyone else in WWE history.

The Rock has held the triple crown, and has won a Royal Rumble. Edge has won a Royal Rumble, Money in the Bank. King of the Ring and a grand slam.

Edge has held titles outside of the WWE. The Rock has not.

Edge helped popularise the ladder match, and Jeff Hardy is the only man to have featured in more. The Rock had NO signature matches.

The Rock was in one of the most popular tag teams of all time: the Rock n Sock Connection.
Edge was in one of the most popular tag teams of all time: Rated RKO.
AND Edge was also in one of the most influential teams of all time: Each and Christian.

The Rock and Edge actively received acting roles. Edge turned down roles that would interfere with his WWE career. The Rock reduced his WWE career so that it would not interfere with his TV and movie roles.

The Rock retired from full-time wrestling after 6 years. Edge kept up a full-time schedule for 16 years until he was forced to retire.

The Rock is a third generation performer who counts as both black and samoan. Edge is a blonde-canuck. Both men have had a lot handed to them, but Edge had to work much harder and earned much more than he got.

I don't think he deserves the HOF, but he deserves it more than the Rock did. And this is just the reasons I could be bothered to give right now.

 

[Deleted User]

*cracks knuckles* mmmkay, here we go.....

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>First of all, Rock was hired strictly based on two things; a) Vince McMahon heard that Rocky Johnson's kid had just started wrestling. And b) Vince McMahon was a massive fan of High Cheif Peter Maivia. McMahon had never seen Rock. I don't mean just in a match, he had no idea what he looked like in any form. Just that he would probably be black. But McMahon knew that Rock had been training for the ring for less than a year, and had yet to have his first match. And Rock only did it because he had no chance in the NFL.

Edge, meanwhile, always wanted to be a professional wrestler. He went to a wrestling school, and then worked the independent circuits in Canada and the US. He missed the "shortcut" schools, locations and big name companies. He auditioned for the WWE himself. How many first-generation Canadian wrestlers of his size back then made it to the WWE without going through the Dungeon, Japan, WCW or ECW? Not many.[/quote]

First off, we shouldn't count how they got into the business, because if we do, guys like Ricky Steamboat no longer are HOF material. He went to wrestling camp to appease his then girlfriend, since her dad owned the joint. Let's just keep the focus on what they did for the business, and their impact.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>The Rock has held 7 major championships in the WWE, 9 if you count the WCW World Title. Edge has won 11.

The Rock has been Intercontinental champion twice. Edge has held 5 Intercontinental championships, making him one of the most succesful title winners. And he is the reigning (co)Hardcore Champion.[/quote]

The number of championships is irrelevant, as well. Hogan only had it 6 times (I'm including the Undisputed title as a WWE title win), and Tito Santana never even HAD the WWE championship, and he had less than 5 IC runs! So, I'm disregarding those points, as well. I know, I'm nit-picking, but this is the internet! Where nit-pickers reign supreme!

We must also consider the time of the business when Edge won more titles than Rock. He won them in the new era, where title reigns mean dick, since they only last a month or two. Number of title riegns hasn't mattered since Ric Flair, to be honest. Thus, why I'm passing over the tag team point.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>The Rock has held the triple crown, and has won a Royal Rumble. Edge has won a Royal Rumble, Money in the Bank. King of the Ring and a grand slam.[/quote]

First off, Mable won a King of the Ring, as well. He ain't never gonna get a ring.

Second off: Rock wasn't around for Money in the Bank, that's like making a point against Buddy Rodgers for not ever winning
the WCW title.

Third off: Yes, Edge had a Grand Slam in his career. When the only other top guys were Orton and Cena. Not too much competition to have to outshine, there. Rock won his Triple crown in the midst of what is arguably one of the best WWE rosters in history, you HAD to have that "it" factor and stand out, because there was sooooo much talent trying to break through that had all the tools to be an icon.

In Edge's heyday when he was champ, he HAD to be pushed to the moon just to convince people to actually like him. Like it or not, he was king of hill when the hill was populated by a bunch of bland, vanilla, green as gills talent.

Rock stood out against the likes of Austin, Triple H, Mick Foley, The Undertaker, Kane, Kurt Angle, and Chris Jericho, when they were in their PRIME. True, Edge has had some experiences with a few of these guys, but nothing I would call a "classic WWE moment".

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Edge has held titles outside of the WWE. The Rock has not.[/quote]

The Rock is a two-time USWA tag-team champion.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Edge helped popularise the ladder match, and Jeff Hardy is the only man to have featured in more. The Rock had NO signature matches.[/quote]

True, but The Rock helped popularize Pro Wrestling and was a vital part into bringing it to its most illustrious and highest money making time in it's history.

Austin, Flair, Bret Hart and Hulk Hogan do not have a signature match, either.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>The Rock was in one of the most popular tag teams of all time: the Rock n Sock Connection.
Edge was in one of the most popular tag teams of all time: Rated RKO.
AND Edge was also in one of the most influential teams of all time: Each and Christian.[/quote]

This point is true, however, the fact that Rock's tag-team was strictly an accident, and ended up being a phenomenon speaks volumes for him. Edge was a tag-team specialist, I would certainly hope that his tag-teaming record is better than Rocky's.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>The Rock and Edge actively received acting roles. Edge turned down roles that would interfere with his WWE career. The Rock reduced his WWE career so that it would not interfere with his TV and movie roles.
[/quote]

Though it pissed me off when Rock did this, it still says nothing when it comes to his eligibility for the HOF.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>The Rock retired from full-time wrestling after 6 years. Edge kept up a full-time schedule for 16 years until he was forced to retire.[/quote]

Edge is LUCKY that Rock walked away after 6 years, otherwise his career would have ended in the mid-card.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>The Rock is a third generation performer who counts as both black and samoan. Edge is a blonde-canuck. Both men have had a lot handed to them, but Edge had to work much harder and earned much more than he got.[/quote]

Yes he did, and he still is more boring than John Laurinaitis reading the book of Chronicles on ludes.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>I don't think he deserves the HOF, but he deserves it more than the Rock did.[/quote]

The Rock will be remembered on the same steeple as Austin, Hogan, and Hart. He will be an icon of the business for all time. Edge was never even close to icon status.

Just my few cents.

 

[Tired]

The warm up is over.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>First off, we shouldn't count how they got into the business.[/quote]

Yes, we should. But more for recognising what they had to do to get there. I am not suggesting that someone who had it easy should be disqualified from entry. But rather, someone who made it to the top at the time when size and family lineage was the coveted 'it' factors should get more recognition. Sure, Bret Hart reached the top of the WWE, but Owen Hart's journey there is more impressive. My point is that Edge had to do a hell of a lot more to get into the WWE at a time when it was much harder to get there.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Let's just keep the focus on what they did for the business, and their impact.[/quote]

If you change the rules to suit the individuals, then everyone gets in. If you limit it that much, then we lose guys like Harley Race, Paul Orndorff and Ted DiBiase, Sr.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>The number of championships is irrelevant, as well. Hogan only had it 6 times (I'm including the Undisputed title as a WWE title win), and Tito Santana never even HAD the WWE championship, and he had less than 5 IC runs! So, I'm disregarding those points, as well. I know, I'm nit-picking, but this is the internet! Where nit-pickers reign supreme!
[/quote]

Then in that case, neither Edge nor Rock has ever won a title.

The Rock won his IC titles at a time when the IC division was quite weak. And the multitude of his title defences required elaborate storylines. For example, at the 1998 Royal Rumble, he needed the Nation of Domination to interfere and attack Shamrock. He hit Shamrock with brass knuckles, and hid them on him. And when still overcame, he claimed back the victory by DQ. This was overkill and typical of the Rock. Edge, meanwhile, always beat tough champions when they were on hot streaks: Jeff Jarrett, Lance Storm, Test, Christian and Randy Orton. Between 1999 and 2003. He was only ever at the top of the IC division when there was serious competition.

Moving onto the major titles, the Rock typically lost the title within 60 days. His title defences were either against the same opponent over and over and over again. Or they were against mid-carders who had not really moved into the main even picture yet. Edge, meanwhile had to deal with both types of contender. And his opponents included Batista, Undertaker and John Cena. While the Rock took on the big guys from his day, Edge took on the big guys from his day.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>The Rock wasn't around for Money In The Bank[/quote]

Fair enough. Although, that is his own fault. Edge started in the industry around the same time the Rock did, but he stayed around, and the Rock didn't.

And Randy Savage, Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Triple H also won KOTR. And Rock lost out to Shamrock. So I don't see your point about Mabel winning it.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Third off: Yes, Edge had a Grand Slam in his career. When the only other top guys were Orton and Cena. Not too much competition to have to outshine, there. Rock won his Triple crown in the midst of what is arguably one of the best WWE rosters in history, you HAD to have that "it" factor and stand out, because there was sooooo much talent trying to break through that had all the tools to be an icon.[/quote]

Correction: Edge had the same competition that the Rock, and a lot more. All of the Rock's opposition were in the WWE at the same time Edge was. Edge was winning titles when the Rock was. The only difference is that when competition starting changing, Edge didn't run away. The Rock did. The Rock barely held his own at a time when competition was fierce and he was at his prime. Edge beat the best there was available after he passed his prime. In fact, many of the opponents that were mid-carders when Rock beat them were solid main-eventers when Edge beat them. Chris Jericho, Triple H, Chris Benoit, The Undertaker. How many times has the Rock ever beaten Undertaker in a singles match? Edge has beaten him for the World Championship TWICE. EDGE BEAT THE FUCKING UNDERTAKER TO BECOME WORLD CHAMPION - TWICE!

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>In Edge's heyday when he was champ, he HAD to be pushed to the moon just to convince people to actually like him.[/quote]

Did you forget that you are defending The Rock when you typed that?

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> True, Edge has had some experiences with a few of these guys, but nothing I would call a "classic WWE moment".
[/quote]

1. The first tag team Ladder Match. Right up there with Rock vs Austin pt.1.
2. The triple threat tag team ladder match - overshadowed all of the Rock's matches in 2000, the year that the Rock spent most of his time as champion.
3. The first TLC. - Same again.]
4. Winning the KOTR as a mid-carder, beating Kurt Angle.
5. Cage match with Chris Benoit.
6. Cashing in the first ever MITB contract.
7. Live sex celebration.
8. Spearing Foley through a flaming table, landing face first in the fire.
9. Costing Cena the title at ECW One Night Stand 2006.
10. Facing the Undertaker at WrestleMania in a major title match.
11. Almost any singles match with Shawn Michaels.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Rock stood out against the likes of Austin, Triple H, Mick Foley, The Undertaker, Kane, Kurt Angle, and Chris Jericho, when they were in their PRIME.[/quote]

Maybe so, but Edge still has victories over Austin, Triple H, Mick Foley, Undertaker, Kane, Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho. And some of them were in their prime too. But then again, Edge has victories over some of them when he himself wasn't in his prime. And when he wasn't in his prime, he has beaten Cena, Orton, Jeff Hardy when they were in their prime.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> The Rock is a two-time USWA tag team champion.[/quote]

I'll give you that. I missed that one.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>The Rock helped popularize Pro Wrestling and was a vital part into bringing it to its most illustrious and highest money making time in it's history.[/quote]

The Rock HELPED popularise Pro Wrestling. With Austin, DX and Mankind. And Edge helped carry the company during a lull, Like Michaels did in 1996-1998. Some of the highest ratings that the WWE has earned since WCW and ECW went off the air was when Edge was a title holder.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Austin, Flair, Bret Hart and Hulk Hogan do not have a signature match, either. [/quote]

Austin: Any no disqualifications match.
Ric Flair: Cage matches.
Bret Hart: I Quit / Submission matches. An endurance match, not just Iron Man.
Hulk Hogan: Cage matches.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>the fact that Rock's tag-team was strictly an accident, and ended up being a phenomenon speaks volumes for him[/quote]

Rated RKO was a last minute decision, so surely this would speak just as loudly for Edge.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>RagNaRoc</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>The Rock and Edge actively received acting roles. Edge turned down roles that would interfere with his WWE career. The Rock reduced his WWE career so that it would not interfere with his TV and movie roles.
[/quote]

Though it pissed me off when Rock did this, it still says nothing when it comes to his eligibility for the HOF.[/quote]

If I agree with your point, you can be the one that tells Austin and Roddy Piper that they didn't need to stick with wrestling.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Edge is LUCKY that Rock walked away after 6 years, otherwise his career would have ended in the mid-card.[/quote]

No. It's not luck. It just means that Edge would have spent years jobbing to Rock and Orton instead of Cena and Orton.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>he still is more boring than John Laurinaitis reading the book of Chronicles on ludes.
[/quote]

Spoiler: click to toggle

You don't need to be exciting if you are standing beside this when you speak!

Spoiler: click to toggle

The Rock will be remembered on the same steeple as Austin, Hogan, and Hart. He will be an icon of the business for all time. Edge was never even close to icon status.

Nope. But he will be remembered alongside Jeff Hardy, Batista, John Cena, Brock Lesnar and Randy Orton. Being roughly the same age as you are, I would rather have Austin, Hogan and Hart. But we are not the current generation. And when they get to our age, Hardy, Batista, Cena, Lesnar, Orton and Edge will be considered legends too.

Now that I know how WildForce feels, I will say one last thing.

Spoiler: click to toggle

Your mother!

[/spoiler]

 

[Deleted User]

First off, just wanna say that I'm enjoying this, wrong as you are.

I still stand by that we shouldn't count how they broke in, being as the Hall of Fame doesn't. This is the "WWE Hall of Fame" we are talking about here, not "The Fair and Balanced Wrestling Hall of Fame".

Was it admirable for how Edge got to the WWE? Yup. Same with a number of other guys, doesn't make 'em Hall of Famers.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>If you change the rules to suit the individuals, then everyone gets in. If you limit it that much, then we lose guys like Harley Race, Paul Orndorff and Ted DiBiase, Sr. [/quote]

I'm not changing the rules, people are inducted into the Hall based on what they did for the business and their impact.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> His title defences were either against the same opponent over and over and over again. Or they were against mid-carders who had not really moved into the main even picture yet.[/quote]

Same with Hogan and Austin, what's yer point? Count the number of legitimate threats to any of those three guys during their heyday, and you won't run out of fingers.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> Edge, meanwhile had to deal with both types of contender. And his opponents included Batista, Undertaker and John Cena. While the Rock took on the big guys from his day, Edge took on the big guys from his day. [/quote]

The Rock had to fight Taker, Austin, Foley, and Brock Lesnar. Edge had to deal with the likes Cena. Batista, Orton and Undertaker.

Seems like on this point, both Rock and Edge are in the same boat. Even though I think the Rock had much more competition in his day.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Edge started in the industry around the same time the Rock did, but he stayed around, and the Rock didn't.[/quote]

And I bet Edge was very grateful to see Rock go so a spot could open up that never would have. Seriously, the Rock leaving was one of the best things to happen to guys like Edge's careers.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>And Randy Savage, Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Triple H also won KOTR. And Rock lost out to Shamrock. So I don't see your point about Mabel winning it.[/quote]

I just couldn't resist the urge to be a smart-ass.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Correction: Edge had the same competition that the Rock, and a lot more.[/quote]

Yeah, like Matt Hardy and Jack Swagger. C'mon, the SAME competition and a lot more? Who are you trying to convince?

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> All of the Rock's opposition were in the WWE at the same time Edge was. Edge was winning titles when the Rock was. The only difference is that when competition starting changing, Edge didn't run away. The Rock did. The Rock barely held his own at a time when competition was fierce and he was at his prime.[/quote]

The Rock did a lot more than "hold his own", he reached that level for being damn good and improving incredibly quick. Watch his match against Jericho at No Mercy. The Rock may not have been a tactician, but he was solid in his placement and psychology. Sure, Edge was winning titles when Rock was. Bret was winning titles when Hogan was, too. Didn't put him on Hogan's level when they were both at WWF.

The Rock didn't run away because the competition was changing, he left to pursue a different career, quite the difference. Like I said before, if he hadn't of left, guys like Edge would have never seen the success they did in his absence.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Correction: Edge had the same competition that the Rock, and a lot more[/quote]

Correction: Like fricken' hell he did, and you know it.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Edge beat the best there was available after he passed his prime. In fact, many of the opponents that were mid-carders when Rock beat them were solid main-eventers when Edge beat them. Chris Jericho, Triple H, Chris Benoit, The Undertaker.[/quote]

The only person on that list that could be considered a mid-card opponent in Rock's time is Benoit. C'mon, man. All those other guys had great high-profile feuds with Rock. Let's keep what you said in mind: "Edge beat the best there was available."

Also, saying Undertaker was a mid-carder at ANY time is just wrong, sir. Wrong.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>How many times has the Rock ever beaten Undertaker in a singles match?[/quote]

Once, out of the three times it actually happened. How many times did Edge actually face Undertaker?

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Did you forget that you are defending The Rock when you typed that?[/quote]

Nope, my point was, they did the same thing with Edge that they did Cena, take a guy with some heat, and act like he had all the heat. They HAD to push Edge, because they had very few options. Edge never quite got over like Rock or Austin, or even Cena, for that matter.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>1. The first tag team Ladder Match. Right up there with Rock vs Austin pt.1.
2. The triple threat tag team ladder match - overshadowed all of the Rock's matches in 2000, the year that the Rock spent most of his time as champion.
3. The first TLC. - Same again.]
4. Winning the KOTR as a mid-carder, beating Kurt Angle.
5. Cage match with Chris Benoit.
6. Cashing in the first ever MITB contract.
7. Live sex celebration.
8. Spearing Foley through a flaming table, landing face first in the fire.
9. Costing Cena the title at ECW One Night Stand 2006.
10. Facing the Undertaker at WrestleMania in a major title match.
11. Almost any singles match with Shawn Michaels.[/quote]

I was meaning his one on one singles matches. Those tag-team ladder matches, him and Bubba were the two laziest, in my opinion, everyone else made those. Sure, Edge won the King of the Ring.... and no one cared. I remember that year, they kept pushing the whole "Edge Head" thing to absolutely no avail.

I've yet to hear a wrestling fan say: "Man, remember when Edge won King of the Ring? Wasn't that a classic?"

I don't remember that cage match.... which just goes to show how much of a classic it was.

Live sex celebration? I didn't think anyone over the age of 14 cared.

Spearing Foley through a flaming table would be cool.... if his spear didn't suck so much. It's a running hug. That's it.

Costing Cena the title at One Night Stand doesn't really count as a classic moment, being as most people remember that night for RVD and the hellacious crowd.

Being fed to the Undertaker at Wrestlemania for a title isn't a classic moment, it wasn't when Taker fought Sid, either. Everyone knew how it would end.

Almost any singles match with Shawn Michaels? Tsk, tsk, Rag...... You damn well know that doesn't count! Shawn can make ANYONE. Just watch HIS matches with Sid. Sid never looked better.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Maybe so, but Edge still has victories over Austin, Triple H, Mick Foley, Undertaker, Kane, Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho. And some of them were in their prime too.[/quote]

Maybe Jericho was. Maybe. Also, the anticipation for those matches can't match the anticipation for when Rock was facing them, not by a long shot.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> And when he wasn't in his prime, he has beaten Cena, Orton, Jeff Hardy when they were in their prime.
[/quote]

Him and Jeff were on the same level of "prime", I'd like to point out. Same with Orton and Cena. Orton, Cena and Edge all blew up around the same time.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>The Rock HELPED popularise Pro Wrestling. With Austin, DX and Mankind. [/quote]

And Edge helped guys like me not watch for six years because they were so damn vanilla and boring.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> Edge helped carry the company during a lull, Like Michaels did in 1996-1998. Some of the highest ratings that the WWE has earned since WCW and ECW went off the air was when Edge was a title holder.[/quote]

First off, Bret freaking Hart. Edge getting some of the higher ratings after all the competition was gone doesn't really say much, and it doesn't put him in Bret's or HBK's league, it really doesn't. Though his initial heel turn after the Hardy fiasco was interesting, it couldn't hold attention long enough. Not saying he isn't a draw, but he isn't interesting enough to really break outside of the wrestling box and bring in new fans, he could only cater to those who already knew who he was. Austin and Rock didn't have that problem.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Austin: Any no disqualifications match.
Ric Flair: Cage matches.
Bret Hart: I Quit / Submission matches. An endurance match, not just Iron Man.
Hulk Hogan: Cage matches.
[/quote]
All of these examples are not considered those stars "signature match", just a match that compliments their style. Let's not split hairs, my man.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Rated RKO was a last minute decision, so surely this would speak just as loudly for Edge.[/quote]

Rated RKO sucked. It consisted of two of my least favorite and boring wrestlers ever, and they didn't have the heat Edge and Christian or the Rock and Sock connection did.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>If I agree with your point, you can be the one that tells Austin and Roddy Piper that they didn't need to stick with wrestling.[/quote]

Wait, what? I'm honestly confused on that one.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>No. It's not luck. It just means that Edge would have spent years jobbing to Rock and Orton instead of Cena and Orton.[/quote]

Yes, it IS Edge's good fortune that Rock left, otherwise he would have NEVER gotten that spot.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>You don't need to be exciting if you are standing beside this when you speak!

Spoiler: click to toggle

[/quote]

I'll agree.... so what about the rest of his main event career? I slept through it, too. No worries.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Nope. But he will be remembered alongside Jeff Hardy, Batista, John Cena, Brock Lesnar and Randy Orton. [/quote]

I'd agree with that list besides Brock. Sorry. Same time and whatnot, but no. He will NEVER be remembered the same way as Lesnar.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>. And when they get to our age, Hardy, Batista, Cena, Lesnar, Orton and Edge will be considered legends too. [/quote]

:cena
Will they be considered legends? Time will tell. Y'know, that time that should have passed before he was inducted, perhaps? Then maybe it might make sense.

Here's a quick test. Go to ten of your non-wrestling fan friends and ask them if they know who Edge is. Then ask them if they know who the Rock is.[/SPOILER]

 

[KG 24]

Man, remember when Edge won King of the Ring? Wasn't that a classic? Ok, i'll let myself out the eye of the storm...

 

[Tired]

Me too. Now I know why WildForce does it. ^o)

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>I still stand by that we shouldn't count how they broke in, being as the Hall of Fame doesn't. This is the "WWE Hall of Fame" we are talking about here, not "The Fair and Balanced Wrestling Hall of Fame".

Was it admirable for how Edge got to the WWE? Yup. Same with a number of other guys, doesn't make 'em Hall of Famers.[/quote]

How you get there on it's own doesn't matter. And there is no one singular point that matters. You can't argue that Mr. McMahon deserves to go into the Hall of Fame based on the fact that he bought out his own father alone. You have to consider his entire business and professional career, achievements and titles included. No one factor makes a legend. In cases like this, this is supplementary information. If he had come through the Dungeon or WCW, his arrival would have been less impressive. For Edge, getting there was a mountain. For the Rock, it is stepping over one of those stools that children stand on to help them pee into the adult-sized toilet bowls when they are young. This counts.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>I'm not changing the rules[/quote]

Yes! You are!

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Same with Hogan and Austin, what's yer point? Count the number of legitimate threats to any of those three guys during their heyday, and you won't run out of fingers.[/quote]

You misunderstood me.

1st WWF Championship. Defeated Mankind. Only defended the title against Mankind. (His only title defence against another opponent was not shown in the US). Lost the title to Mankind.
2nd WWF Championship. Defeated Mankind. Only defended the title against Mankind.
3rd WWF Championship. Defeated Mankind. Only title defence was against Austin.
4th WWF Championship. Defeated Triple H. Only title defence was against Triple H.
5th WWF Championship. Defended the title against 'American Bad Ass' Undertaker, Kane, Chris Benoit, Shane McMahon and Triple H (who was feuding with other people throughout). All mid-carders, apart from Triple H. Lost to Kurt Angle.
6th WWF Championship. Defeated Kurt Angle. Only title defence was against Steve Austin.
1st WCW Championship. Defeats Booker T. Mainly defends the title against Booker T. Loses to mid-carder Chris Jericho in his first main event.
2nd WCW Championship. Defeats Chris Jericho, and loses to Jericho in only title defence.
Undisputed Championship. Defeats Undertaker and mid-carder Kurt Angle. Loses to mid-carder Brock Lesnar in his first main-event (first and only title defense).

And most of these title reigns lasted less than 45 days. So he hardly held his own. He rarely beat someone twice in a row. And when he did, a new challenger always took him by suprise. The only reign where this is different, his main opponents are embroiled with feuds with other con tenders.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>
The Rock had to fight Taker, Austin, Foley, and Brock Lesnar. Edge had to deal with the likes Cena. Batista, Orton and Undertaker.

Seems like on this point, both Rock and Edge are in the same boat. Even though I think the Rock had much more competition in his day.
[/quote]

Edge had to fight Cena, Orton, Big Show, Jeff Hardy, Vladimir Kozlov, Rey Mysterio, Dolph Ziggler, Kane, Batista, Undertaker, CM Punk, Kane, Alberto Del Rio, Triple H, Chris Benoit, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair. And this is just the list of title defences. Nope, Edge had it harder.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>And I bet Edge was very grateful to see Rock go [/spoiler]

Most of the WWE locker room and fan base was glad to see him go.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>I just couldn't resist the urge to be a smart-ass. [/quote]

:birdy

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>C'mon, the SAME competition and a lot more? Who are you trying to convince?[/quote]

Good point. I'm trying to talk to a guy who thinkls that the Rock was better than Edge! :there there:

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>The Rock did a lot more than "hold his own"...[/quote]

Already disproved this, but continue.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> he reached that level for being damn good and improving incredibly quick.[/quote]

Excuse me, won't you? Every time I read that sentence, my Bullshit Alarm goes off. The Rock's ladder match with Triple H at SummerSlam 98 and His match against Jericho at No Mercy 2001 were two great matches. But nearly all of the matches inbetween sucked. It is quite said that he would win so many championships in between these two matches considering how little he actually was improving.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>
Quoting limited to 2 levels deep[/quote]

Let's face it, much of the competition that the Rock faced advanced with him. So the opponents he battled in the mid-card (like Triple H and Austin) moved into the top tier at the same time. And then he left. Edge stayed twice as long as Rock did, and saw much more competition than the Rock saw.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Also, saying Undertaker was a mid-carder at ANY time is just wrong, sir. Wrong.[/quote]

First of all, 2000. The Undertaker went long periods of time where he posed no threat to the person holding the major title. I don't mean because he didn't win the title, but because he rarely had title shots. Any period of time in which the Undertaker stays out of the main event picture for a prolonged time makes him a mid-carder, title matches or none. And the Rock's only victories over Undertaker were tag team matches, or that one disqualification win.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Once, out of the three times it actually happened. How many times did Edge actually face Undertaker?[/quote]

First of all, the Rock has had more than 3 singles matches with the Undertaker. And his only win was a DQ win. Edge picked up legitmite pins and wins. The Rock has never beated Undertaker for a championship, and Edge did TWICE. SUCK IT!

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> Nope, my point was, they did the same thing with Edge that they did Cena, take a guy with some heat, and act like he had all the heat. They HAD to push Edge, because they had very few options. Edge never quite got over like Rock or Austin, or even Cena, for that matter.[/quote]

Between 85 and 91, the WWE would reduce the amount of microphone time an opponent had when addressing Hogan, sometimes even cutting the microphone when they talked or editing comments out of broadcasts entirely. Hogan, meanwhile, was given free-reign, botches and all. And they did the same with the Rock between 98 and 02. And the same with Cena between 05 and present day.

Rock received the same push that Cena and Hogan got. Edge didn't. He got the same kind of push that Roddy Piper got, except that he was allowed to win a main-event match now and again. So it's not fair to say that Edge got over more than Rock, Hogan and Cena. Yes, Rock was booed like crazy before he got pushed, and so was Edge. But when people started cheering for him, the WWE turned him babyface. When people started cheering Edge, they kept him heel. And Edge had to have the career anchor that is Vickie Guerrero around his waist (sometimes literally). So they did not get the same opportunities.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>I was meaning his one on one singles matches. Those tag-team ladder matches, him and Bubba were the two laziest, in my opinion, everyone else made those. Sure, Edge won the King of the Ring.... and no one cared. I remember that year, they kept pushing the whole "Edge Head" thing to absolutely no avail.

I've yet to hear a wrestling fan say: "Man, remember when Edge won King of the Ring? Wasn't that a classic?"

I don't remember that cage match.... which just goes to show how much of a classic it was.

Live sex celebration? I didn't think anyone over the age of 14 cared.

Spearing Foley through a flaming table would be cool.... if his spear didn't suck so much. It's a running hug. That's it.

Costing Cena the title at One Night Stand doesn't really count as a classic moment, being as most people remember that night for RVD and the hellacious crowd.

Being fed to the Undertaker at Wrestlemania for a title isn't a classic moment, it wasn't when Taker fought Sid, either. Everyone knew how it would end.

Almost any singles match with Shawn Michaels? Tsk, tsk, Rag...... You damn well know that doesn't count! Shawn can make ANYONE. Just watch HIS matches with Sid. Sid never looked better.
Quoting limited to 2 levels deep

Spoiler: click to toggle

Me too. Now I know why WildForce does it. ^o)

I still stand by that we shouldn't count how they broke in, being as the Hall of Fame doesn't. This is the "WWE Hall of Fame" we are talking about here, not "The Fair and Balanced Wrestling Hall of Fame".

Was it admirable for how Edge got to the WWE? Yup. Same with a number of other guys, doesn't make 'em Hall of Famers.

How you get there on it's own doesn't matter. And there is no one singular point that matters. You can't argue that Mr. McMahon deserves to go into the Hall of Fame based on the fact that he bought out his own father alone. You have to consider his entire business and professional career, achievements and titles included. No one factor makes a legend. In cases like this, this is supplementary information. If he had come through the Dungeon or WCW, his arrival would have been less impressive. For Edge, getting there was a mountain. For the Rock, it is stepping over one of those stools that children stand on to help them pee into the adult-sized toilet bowls when they are young. This counts.

I'm not changing the rules

Yes! You are!

Same with Hogan and Austin, what's yer point? Count the number of legitimate threats to any of those three guys during their heyday, and you won't run out of fingers.

You misunderstood me.

1st WWF Championship. Defeated Mankind. Only defended the title against Mankind. (His only title defence against another opponent was not shown in the US). Lost the title to Mankind.
2nd WWF Championship. Defeated Mankind. Only defended the title against Mankind.
3rd WWF Championship. Defeated Mankind. Only title defence was against Austin.
4th WWF Championship. Defeated Triple H. Only title defence was against Triple H.
5th WWF Championship. Defended the title against 'American Bad Ass' Undertaker, Kane, Chris Benoit, Shane McMahon and Triple H (who was feuding with other people throughout). All mid-carders, apart from Triple H. Lost to Kurt Angle.
6th WWF Championship. Defeated Kurt Angle. Only title defence was against Steve Austin.
1st WCW Championship. Defeats Booker T. Mainly defends the title against Booker T. Loses to mid-carder Chris Jericho in his first main event.
2nd WCW Championship. Defeats Chris Jericho, and loses to Jericho in only title defence.
Undisputed Championship. Defeats Undertaker and mid-carder Kurt Angle. Loses to mid-carder Brock Lesnar in his first main-event (first and only title defense).

And most of these title reigns lasted less than 45 days. So he hardly held his own. He rarely beat someone twice in a row. And when he did, a new challenger always took him by suprise. The only reign where this is different, his main opponents are embroiled with feuds with other con tenders.

The Rock had to fight Taker, Austin, Foley, and Brock Lesnar. Edge had to deal with the likes Cena. Batista, Orton and Undertaker.

Seems like on this point, both Rock and Edge are in the same boat. Even though I think the Rock had much more competition in his day.

Edge had to fight Cena, Orton, Big Show, Jeff Hardy, Vladimir Kozlov, Rey Mysterio, Dolph Ziggler, Kane, Batista, Undertaker, CM Punk, Kane, Alberto Del Rio, Triple H, Chris Benoit, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair. And this is just the list of title defences. Nope, Edge had it harder.

And I bet Edge was very grateful to see Rock go

[/spoiler]

Most of the WWE locker room and fan base was glad to see him go.

I just couldn't resist the urge to be a smart-ass.

:birdy

C'mon, the SAME competition and a lot more? Who are you trying to convince?

Good point. I'm trying to talk to a guy who thinkls that the Rock was better than Edge! :there there:

The Rock did a lot more than "hold his own"...

Already disproved this, but continue.

he reached that level for being damn good and improving incredibly quick.

Excuse me, won't you? Every time I read that sentence, my Bullshit Alarm goes off. The Rock's ladder match with Triple H at SummerSlam 98 and His match against Jericho at No Mercy 2001 were two great matches. But nearly all of the matches inbetween sucked. It is quite said that he would win so many championships in between these two matches considering how little he actually was improving.

Correction: Edge had the same competition that the Rock, and a lot more

Correction: Like fricken' hell he did, and you know it.

Let's face it, much of the competition that the Rock faced advanced with him. So the opponents he battled in the mid-card (like Triple H and Austin) moved into the top tier at the same time. And then he left. Edge stayed twice as long as Rock did, and saw much more competition than the Rock saw.

Also, saying Undertaker was a mid-carder at ANY time is just wrong, sir. Wrong.

First of all, 2000. The Undertaker went long periods of time where he posed no threat to the person holding the major title. I don't mean because he didn't win the title, but because he rarely had title shots. Any period of time in which the Undertaker stays out of the main event picture for a prolonged time makes him a mid-carder, title matches or none. And the Rock's only victories over Undertaker were tag team matches, or that one disqualification win.

Once, out of the three times it actually happened. How many times did Edge actually face Undertaker?

First of all, the Rock has had more than 3 singles matches with the Undertaker. And his only win was a DQ win. Edge picked up legitmite pins and wins. The Rock has never beated Undertaker for a championship, and Edge did TWICE. SUCK IT!

Nope, my point was, they did the same thing with Edge that they did Cena, take a guy with some heat, and act like he had all the heat. They HAD to push Edge, because they had very few options. Edge never quite got over like Rock or Austin, or even Cena, for that matter.

Between 85 and 91, the WWE would reduce the amount of microphone time an opponent had when addressing Hogan, sometimes even cutting the microphone when they talked or editing comments out of broadcasts entirely. Hogan, meanwhile, was given free-reign, botches and all. And they did the same with the Rock between 98 and 02. And the same with Cena between 05 and present day.

Rock received the same push that Cena and Hogan got. Edge didn't. He got the same kind of push that Roddy Piper got, except that he was allowed to win a main-event match now and again. So it's not fair to say that Edge got over more than Rock, Hogan and Cena. Yes, Rock was booed like crazy before he got pushed, and so was Edge. But when people started cheering for him, the WWE turned him babyface. When people started cheering Edge, they kept him heel. And Edge had to have the career anchor that is Vickie Guerrero around his waist (sometimes literally). So they did not get the same opportunities.

I was meaning his one on one singles matches. Those tag-team ladder matches, him and Bubba were the two laziest, in my opinion, everyone else made those. Sure, Edge won the King of the Ring.... and no one cared. I remember that year, they kept pushing the whole "Edge Head" thing to absolutely no avail.

I've yet to hear a wrestling fan say: "Man, remember when Edge won King of the Ring? Wasn't that a classic?"

I don't remember that cage match.... which just goes to show how much of a classic it was.

Live sex celebration? I didn't think anyone over the age of 14 cared.

Spearing Foley through a flaming table would be cool.... if his spear didn't suck so much. It's a running hug. That's it.

Costing Cena the title at One Night Stand doesn't really count as a classic moment, being as most people remember that night for RVD and the hellacious crowd.

Being fed to the Undertaker at Wrestlemania for a title isn't a classic moment, it wasn't when Taker fought Sid, either. Everyone knew how it would end.

Almost any singles match with Shawn Michaels? Tsk, tsk, Rag...... You damn well know that doesn't count! Shawn can make ANYONE. Just watch HIS matches with Sid. Sid never looked better.

Because the 'Edge Head' thing was rubbish. The 'People' are not. One guy had a plan that was easy to market. One guy had one that was difficult at best. And unexplicably, the easier one worked!

The fact that you don't remember the cage match, or heard people talk about Edge beating King Kurt Angle to be the KOTR shows that YOU are the one living a bubble, not Edge's fans.

At one point, Edge was the most hated man in the WWE for something he did 18 months earlier. But then he became a folk hero for helping Van Dam win the WWE title from Cena.

If Shawn Michaels' matches don't count, then nor do Austin's.

And as for no-one caring about the Live Sex Celbration. Dude, if you must lie, tell convincing lies. We all know that you have looked up the Lita boob slip multiple times too. All of us have done it.

And Edge dived into the flames FACE FIRST. Who cares about the quality of the spear? People don't say that Mick Foley falling through the cell wasn't epic because Foley can't do dropkicks.

And Edge was the 16th person to face Undertaker at WrestleMania, 7 years after the WWE started drawing attention to "The Streak". Yes, his first 10 victories was a bigger deal, because the WWE didn't draw so much attention to the fact that Undertaker had never lost. After all, we knew he would beat Kane, Shawn Michaels and Triple H. But they were still great matches. And how many times did the Rock face Undertaker at WrestleMania? Oh that's right, the Rock sucks so much that Undertaker wouldn't be able to carry him!

Maybe Jericho was. Maybe. Also, the anticipation for those matches can't match the anticipation for when Rock was facing them, not by a long shot.

Well, yeah, it did. Easily. Mainly because the anticipation was not as high as the WWE promotion made out when the Rock was there. Again, please step out of your bubble.

Him and Jeff were on the same level of "prime", I'd like to point out. Same with Orton and Cena. Orton, Cena and Edge all blew up around the same time.

You mean like Austin, Triple H, Mick Foley and the Rock all came up at the same time?

And Edge helped guys like me not watch for six years because they were so damn vanilla and boring.

No, you were fed up with Super Cena, the invincable son-in-law, just like the rest of us. Don't blame McMahon's Cena fetish, or Triple H's ego, on Edge.

First off, Bret freaking Hart. Edge getting some of the higher ratings after all the competition was gone doesn't really say much, and it doesn't put him in Bret's or HBK's league, it really doesn't. Though his initial heel turn after the Hardy fiasco was interesting, it couldn't hold attention long enough. Not saying he isn't a draw, but he isn't interesting enough to really break outside of the wrestling box and bring in new fans, he could only cater to those who already knew who he was.

Agreed. But the Rock being in the right place when Austin, DX, Undertaker, Kane and Foley took the WWE to it's highest heights doesn't mean a damn thing either. Just because he was there when times were good, and left before they got bad, it does not mean that he was the reason why they were good. This is Hogan logic. He would be "injured" on weeks when Nitro broadcasts aired with other sporting events. And the would "recover" when there was no clash. So it looked like the lack of Hogan was the reason why WCW struggled. If Rock really cared about wrestling, he would've made a proper return to the ring. But no, he got out once he knew they were entering another low. And when professional wrestling picks up again, Hogan and the Rock will be first in line to claim the credit.

Austin: Any no disqualifications match.
Ric Flair: Cage matches.
Bret Hart: I Quit / Submission matches. An endurance match, not just Iron Man.
Hulk Hogan: Cage matches.

All of these examples are not considered those stars "signature match", just a match that compliments their style. Let's not split hairs, my man.

The nit-picker is back! By that logic, any wrestling matches that require wrestling goes against the Rock's style. By that logic, no-one has signature matches. JBL didn't love bull-rope matches because he was a Texan, but because his style favours cow-bells! Kane doesn't love Inferno matches, he is just good at setting opponents on fire! The Undertaker is not good at Casket, Hell In A Cell or Buried Alive matches, because he loves digging, being in a cage and boxes! So the Undertaker is a dog, not a wrestler.

Take your own advice, don't split hairs.

Rated RKO sucked. It consisted of two of my least favorite and boring wrestlers ever, and they didn't have the heat Edge and Christian or the Rock and Sock connection did.

Yes, they did suck. And so did Rock n Sock. They were both rubbish teams. But Rated RKO were far more popular than Rock N Sock ever were. Take a look around any wrestling forum, even this one. Count all of the Rated RKO and Rock N Sock signatures people have made. And then tell me that the heel tag team weren't as popular as the babyfaces.

No. It's not luck. It just means that Edge would have spent years jobbing to Rock and Orton instead of Cena and Orton.

Yes, it IS Edge's good fortune that Rock left, otherwise he would have NEVER gotten that spot.

And people like Edge would be the reason why Rock would still be in that spot.

You don't need to be exciting if you are standing beside this when you speak!

Spoiler

I'll agree.... so what about the rest of his main event career? I slept through it, too. No worries.

He didn't have the creative freedom that the Rock, Hogan, Cena, Triple H or Punk (now) has. He was told to stick to a script. And again, he did a brilliant job for someone who had to keep Vickie Guerrero by his side.

Nope. But he will be remembered alongside Jeff Hardy, Batista, John Cena, Brock Lesnar and Randy Orton.

I'd agree with that list besides Brock. Sorry. Same time and whatnot, but no. He will NEVER be remembered the same way as Lesnar.

I'll be honest, most of that list bothers me too.

. And when they get to our age, Hardy, Batista, Cena, Lesnar, Orton and Edge will be considered legends too.

I'll be honest. That list bothers me too.

Will they be considered legends? Time will tell. Y'know, that time that should have passed before he was inducted, perhaps? Then maybe it might make sense.

No arguments here. It is far too soon for Edge OR Rock to go in. The Rock received more from the industry than he earned for it. To be honest, I don't believe that either individual should have went in with 10 years of their retirement. That's not to say that rule applies to everyone. The Austin's, Hart's and McMahon's deserve quick induction. But Rock or Edge? No.

Here's a quick test. Go to ten of your non-wrestling fan friends and ask them if they know who Edge is. Then ask them if they know who the Rock is.

I'll try it. Tomorrow.

And I know that you're already thinking a responce. Please step out of your attitude era bubble and look at what has been happening in wrestling for the last few years first.

Now, I'm off to post the news items that TDK is now too scared to post.

 

[Deleted User]

Also, I hope OSR understands Rag and I are not fricken fighting. We're using the forum for its intended purpose.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> Please step out of your attitude era bubble and look at what has been happening in wrestling for the last few years first.[/quote]

I've been watching, and I've been liking what I see. Especially since Edge left. I'm not sitting back whining about how the attitude era is better than what we are seeing now, I just think things like titles meant more. I lost my nostalgia goggles long ago, thus, why I am a regular and enthusiastic viewer. I just have to draw attitude era references when commenting on the Rock's career, since that's when he wrestled.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>And most of these title reigns lasted less than 45 days.[/quote]

Who's? Edge's or Rock's? ^o)

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Edge had to fight Cena, Orton, Big Show, Jeff Hardy, Vladimir Kozlov, Rey Mysterio, Dolph Ziggler, Kane, Batista, Undertaker, CM Punk, Kane, Alberto Del Rio, Triple H, Chris Benoit, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair. And this is just the list of title defences. Nope, Edge had it harder.
[/quote]

Ric Flair? C'mon..... yes, he had a much more diversified title defense history. They had to throw all those people at him to try and convince people he was legit, just like they did Cena and Orton. A World Title Defense against Ric Flair any time past 1995 isn't saying too much. A lot of those guys were mid-carders when Edge defended, anyway.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Most of the WWE locker room and fan base was glad to see him go.[/quote]

So, my point about it helping Edge's career was spot on, eh? And yes, many of us, myself included, were happy to see him leave. Then we saw who was taking his place.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Good point. I'm trying to talk to a guy who thinkls that the Rock was better than Edge![/quote]

No you're not, you are talking to guy who thinks Rock is more deserving of his HOF spot. That's it.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Excuse me, won't you? Every time I read that sentence, my Bullshit Alarm goes off. The Rock's ladder match with Triple H at SummerSlam 98 and His match against Jericho at No Mercy 2001 were two great matches. But nearly all of the matches inbetween sucked. It is quite said that he would win so many championships in between these two matches considering how little he actually was improving.[/quote]

What about Vengance? What about his stuff with Mankind? What about his matched with Owen Hart? What about his matches with Angle? Or Austin? Tell me those didn't electrify. A lot of his matches may not have been 5 star, but 90% of counts in the WWE (like it or not) is the crowd reaction. He set that crowd on fire, and they popped in ways Edge could only dream of. Go back and watch his last year in a half, he improved a shit-ton.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Edge stayed twice as long as Rock did, and saw much more competition than the Rock saw.[/quote]

Yes he did, because he was there longer. People have beat Babe Ruth's home-run record, and all they had to do was play hundreds upon hundreds more games than he did. (Not comparing Rock's in-rin ability to the Babe's baseball prowess.)

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> Any period of time in which the Undertaker stays out of the main event picture for a prolonged time makes him a mid-carder[/quote]

But.... that's basically 80% of his career! Undertaker doesn't need to be in the title picture, he's the big dog in the yard. A win over him in any fashion is a big deal.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>He got the same kind of push that Roddy Piper got[/quote]

Let's say Macho. Piper was never a world champ.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> the Rock sucks so much that Undertaker wouldn't be able to carry him![/quote]

Vengeance?

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Again, please step out of your bubble.
[/quote]

Like I said, I can only draw references from the time span we're talking about.

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>No, you were fed up with Super Cena, the invincable son-in-law, just like the rest of us. Don't blame McMahon's Cena fetish, or Triple H's ego, on Edge.
[/quote]

Nope, Edge was just as much me stopping watching as Cena. No joke. But then again, he always bored me.

This has turned into who's better, when the original statement was that Edge is more deserving of his HOF spot. Is he more deserving than Hogan, then?

I tried reading most of the tail end, but it was a mess of fuck.

 

[AKI Man]

I know who are getting my votes for March's Honour Roll. Just wish all you bastards would vote for the previous awards, which I may add is still awaiting votes!!

Ruck Roles thats is all! ^o)

 

[TDK]

Now, I'm off to post the news items that TDK is now too scared to post.

Huh??? Scared of what?

It makes for an interesting discussion, but the fact remains you can throw booking records around until the cows come home but that doesn't change the fact the debate is ultimately subjective... I liked Edge, I like Rock, Edge was boring, Rock left for the movies whoop-de-do... No matter how you look at it, most people's opinions are more based on impression than actual content.

Is the fact that so-and-so 'won' two more matches than the other guy ultimately going to tip the scales? Hardly, as they're both being evaluated as performers rather than strictly on wins and losses.

Getting back to the so-called 'scary' news items, my main concern is that you seem to be representing a minority view as if it actually belonged to the majority. Hard as I dig, I'm hard pressed to find inside sources that agree with you, whereas I have little difficulty finding those that take the other side.

If you think this is selective reporting on my part, you're incorrect as I honestly haven't found anything beyond the one anonymous source that kicked off the whole debate.

Will some emerge in the future? Perhaps, but that still doesn't alter the real question as to why so much resentment toward the Rock for leaving in the first place? To be clear, I wasn't happy when he left either but I'm not sitting around in a stew holding it against him. (Not that I'm accusing you of that, as I honestly don't understand your motives well enough to form a solid conviction, except to say - from what I've gleaned so far - I'm beginning to suspect it may stem from a sense of betrayal over the loss of what could have been).

While that may or may not be true, it strikes me as regrettable given that none of us ever had any real claim regarding what Rock chose to do with his life. Yes many of us made an emotional investment but does that really entitle us to anything? I think not... For better or worse, in the cartoon world of wrestling, LOYALTY is just a word on a t-shirt. And when push comes to shove it's all about making the best living you can.

Do I resent Rock for wanting to be a bigger star? Hell no, last time I checked that's what the 'American Dream' is supposed to be about. Matter of fact, I salute Rock for breaking free from Vince and making something more of himself. If that's wrestling heresy, than I'm a happy heretic.

Anyway, enough of this babbling... Carry on gents...

 

[Deleted User]

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>While that may or may not be true, it strikes me as regrettable given that none of us ever had any real claim regarding what Rock chose to do with his life. Yes many of us made an emotional investment but does that really entitle us to anything? I think not... For better or worse, in the cartoon world of wrestling, LOYALTY is just a word on a t-shirt. And when push comes to shove it's all about making the best living you can.[/quote]

I was hoping you would chime in. You and Rag are always fun to talk about with this stuff. Also, great fucking quote.

Also, just to be a dick, in Rag's words:

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Edge has never had a good match.[/quote]

 

[Deleted User]

So, being as time-zones favored me in this round, I win. Rag had to go to sleep. I AM THE LAST MAN STANDING! :cat

 

[Tired]

Hey, wait. What? You can't win because of timezones! That's not fair! I have to sleep. I've been training for my retirement matches. I have a book to finish. I had to find WildForce's mods. I have to...

Aw, screw it.

P.S. Rocky STILL Sucks