How does everyone feel about paid mods/Patreon support?

[SLX]

Hello everyone!

As referred to in the topic title (hey, i wanted it to be direct, for obvious reasons), I was mulling over the idea in my head that I still have some interest in modding, but I also have to spend my time trying to be profitable. I'm not really certain at the moment what I would like to pursue, and to be honest with you guys, I don't want to make any promises, i'd just like to start a discussion so I can have some perspective on how to proceed.

I realize that for most, modding is a hobby, and that we are dealing with a really old game, therefore the majority come to the consensus that asking for money should be frowned upon.

I disagree with this for a few reasons. The first is that modding is a form of game development, which takes time and effort, as well as extrordinary amounts of talent that the majority to not have, or want to pursue. This heavy requirement on the user to produce content of a notable quality in order to maintain interest in this game is very high. So high, in fact, that the majority either do not pursue modding, or produce mods of low or trivial quality.
With the addition of new knowledge of manipulation of No Mercy, many are changing the game to be virtually unrecognizable, thus moving into the full territory of new title development, using hacking as a game engine platform, in a few respects. However, in fear of having their work disseminated about the internet without credit or financial restitution, as well as newer games, has led to an exodus of modders to leave the scene entirely.

Long story short: Media is not cheap to produce and if people can't get paid, there is no incentive to work. You want modders of quality to stick around, they need to get paid, like ever other developer out there.
This has been a sticky subject for years, but the times have changed. Independent creators are marketing and producing their own work, and sponsoring them has never been easier, or more common.

So what i'm wanting to know, is that if I, or others chose to pursue this model, would we be supported? How many out there would be wiling to sponsor modders as an incentive to produce? Because unfortunately that is a HUGE factor in my ability to commit time and energy.

At the end of the day I feel like I am letting down the whole community by not contributing, so I thought I'd at least engage with you guys in these respects.

Please share your comments and opinions, and feel free to send private messages if you would like to speak directly. Thank you guys for keeping OSR alive,

SLX

 

[Deleted User]

A donation page or something I don't see a problem with.

Mods you have to pay for up front I'm against.

I was going to start a gofundme soon about a new No Mercy project, however, it wasn't to pay for the mods themselves, as that is touchy legal territory.


edit: Keep in mind the No Mercy scene can't even keep a domain that requires a monthly fee open and running, so I doubt anyone who downloads these would pay money. :/ I'll be pursuing backers elsewhere.

 

[The NekoMancer]

I understand your point but disagree for the most part.
I mean, If someone donated money to me as a thank you for my hard work that would be neat, but I still would find it awkward and wouldn't feel exactly well about it (see my avatar to have an idea of my reaction to such situation haha).

What I'm saying is, what we do is a hobby, and as a hobby the only motivation I think we need to do what we do is the fun that we have with it.
A patreon funding in my eyes would be extremely blatant because people there normally ask for money in order to keep doing what they do because it COSTS money, and to keep a part of it to themselves, of course. But what we do requires no money at all. I use a free emulator and a free picture editing sofrware for my mods, so there's nothing that I lose or invest at all with my mods.

To finish with my point I repeat, we do this for fun, if you don't have fun, or find this fun that you have a rewarding thing, then just don't do what you don't enjoy, and do something else that fulfills you more than this.

Also, this is gonna sound harsh and I know I'll sound like an asshole but to start with, what we do is use people's likeness without their permit, and for the most part we use trademarked names and trademarked images to do this, asking for money would be a slight bit of a crime in my eyes. So, considering this and that what we do requires no money to be executed... If I want to get my own money, or If I want to be profitable (please forgive this asshole-ish sentence, I really don't mean to be harsh or rude) I would get a real job.

 

[Deleted User]

One way you can use your modding to make money: Build a portfolio for a resume!

Believe it or not, it actually works.

 

[The NekoMancer]

I do believe so! If what you're looking for is a designing or graphics career, this will come in handy. Also, in university they knew of my involvement in graphics and stuff like that so they often asked me for help with designing stuff haha.

 

[KWG]

Agree with what both guys said.

And Victor/Neko mentioned something that I was thinking about earlier when I first read this, it would be illegal to make money with logos, pictures, character and name copyrights that belong to WWE or other companies (maybe not with donations, but still risky), and the reason donations and even paid stuff works in other modding/hacking communities is because there is interest in custom stuff that wouldn't get you in legal trouble.

But you, as someone who has seem probably many No Mercy E-Feds die in a blink, you probably know that the interest in custom stuff for No Mercy is really scarce, probably would have more interest if Championship Mode was more easily hackable.

 

[SLX]

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>NekoMancer, The Ultimate Weeaboo</dt><dd>Aug 10 2017, 08:47:50 PM</dd></dl><div>I understand your point but disagree for the most part.
I mean, If someone donated money to me as a thank you for my hard work that would be neat, but I still would find it awkward and wouldn't feel exactly well about it (see my avatar to have an idea of my reaction to such situation haha).

What I'm saying is, what we do is a hobby, and as a hobby the only motivation I think we need to do what we do is the fun that we have with it.
A patreon funding in my eyes would be extremely blatant because people there normally ask for money in order to keep doing what they do because it COSTS money, and to keep a part of it to themselves, of course. But what we do requires no money at all. I use a free emulator and a free picture editing sofrware for my mods, so there's nothing that I lose or invest at all with my mods.

To finish with my point I repeat, we do this for fun, if you don't have fun, or find this fun that you have a rewarding thing, then just don't do what you don't enjoy, and do something else that fulfills you more than this.

Also, this is gonna sound harsh and I know I'll sound like an asshole but to start with, what we do is use people's likeness without their permit, and for the most part we use trademarked names and trademarked images to do this, asking for money would be a slight bit of a crime in my eyes. So, considering this and that what we do requires no money to be executed... If I want to get my own money, or If I want to be profitable (please forgive this asshole-ish sentence, I really don't mean to be harsh or rude) I would get a real job.[/quote]It does sound harsh, but I totally agree. See, that was what led me to inquire with you guys, but I always thought it would be one of those gray-area things too.

The main reason I asked, is because I find myself in a situation where, like you said, I don't have a desire to mod, as this is no longer what I consider my hobby. What i DO have, is the time to devote to it, if I chose to. But on the flip side, I have a fanbase in the community of people who have never wanted me to stop producing content, content that takes weeks to produce. Keep in mind that I've only focused on arenas for the many years i've been modding. So while everyone is producing photoshop content, i have been modeling my stages in rendering software or game engines for years, since 2010. This is not just 1000x more advanced, but also much more time consuming.

So therefore, when people make requests of me, ask for my return, or want me to join projects, these things have to be taken into consideration as to WHY they are seeking me out. I do not think that I am elite, or better than anyone, but this higher demand for my work is equivalent to buying a Bentley or BMW instead of a Toyota. By this standard I think I deserve compensation for my time, however due to the gray-area nature of what we do, that won't likely happen.

I am glad to hear that Patreon support is something you guys are ok with. The honest drawback of that is no one is going to pay for what they can get for free. This tug of war is keeping me on the sidelines, and it sucks. I can't devote my time for free, but the demand for my time is there. What to do?

This isn't a matter of getting a real job if I need money. I'm married and 100% supported by my spouse, with no need to work at the moment. However, I feel like an arrogant dick to ask for money for my work, in spite of doing this for 11 years. You would think that amount of time invested would eventually have a "Tenure" point where that person is worth paying for their time, whether they own the IP or not. I think Keson and Wolfpac, as well as a few others, are worthy of compensation at least due to the sheer amount of man hours and skill they put into their saves. I go through about 1/2 the same amount of work as 2k Games does just to take a front-snapshot of the final stage image. Lots of details get lost in the translation to 2D, but the whole scene still gets made at ps4-detail levels.

At this point, im just ranting for discussions sake. Has anyone considered implementing a Paypal donation system into the BBS? Everyone could benefit.

 

[S.K. Stylez]

Hmm... imagine being paid to hack...

 

[The NekoMancer]

I think... If you want to make a donation page or to charge a fee for your effort you could totally promote such thing on your sig, if no one else is against it. Only because we know how good your work is.

BUT the prolem is that there's a possibility that some people with lower standards for their work could start mimicking this.

Your work is objectively better than the rest in what you do. So, maybe we could have a selected group of experienced and particularly talented members who are allowed and can be given the option to have donation links posted in their signatures or so. I think the rest of the staff should have their say so in this.

 

[Deleted User]

If ya don't have the desire, brother, maybe take that skill and make an indy game? Might get out that creative desire AND make money.

I whole heartily believe you should use your talent in any capacity.

 

[SLX]

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>S.K. Stylez</dt><dd>Aug 11 2017, 03:13:52 PM</dd></dl><div>Hmm... imagine being paid to hack...[/quote]The thought would make me feel like a dirty old prostitute who just got chills down their spine because they can finally afford a crack rock.

---

If ya don't have the desire, brother, maybe take that skill and make an indy game? Might get out that creative desire AND make money.

I whole heartily believe you should use your talent in any capacity.

I'm an artist, through and through. I straight up admit that I don't believe I am mentally gifted in maths and computer logic to the extent that I could manage a project like that on my own, leaving me to be at the mercy of worthier people. I don't have any interesting game ideas that would actually be profitable and wrestling games are among the absolute hardest to produce. The market is flooded with shooters and platformers have already been proven dead with Yooka-Laylee. Flash games are worthless and i haven't coded for Actionscript in years. I don't know where to start lol.

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I support what Nekomancer said. that sounds reasonable for everyone.

Also, thanks for the praise Neko

 

[baal666]

To make it short, i would be against paid mods.

As NekoMancer said, you don't have to spend money to make mods and anyone can learn it, also the fact that we're using likenesses and all taht stuff. Some 2k modders were hiding their download links behind a paywall and i always found it kind of a dick move. Also remember Bethesda paid mods bullshit.

Sadly, even though doing an indie game might be difficult, i guess it would be the best way for you to make money with your work. Maybe not alone but with a small team, i don't know.

In the end the decision is up to you but i guess not many people, if any, would pay for mods when they can get others for free.

 

[cmX]

How do I feel?

It's stupid.

You're modding/hacking a game from 2000.

 

[PinkFloyd]

I'm against paid mods but I'm for patrons.

The reason being so is because paid mods are literally DLC. You add more content to a finalized game for a fee. Personally, I miss games where the game had all of its content and it was the end of the story. Bless I have not played a game where DLC becomes vital.

Keep in mind what baal said, paid mods were actually a thing and ended pretty quickly. Why? because no one is going to pay for something you can get for free. It's harsh but it's the truth. but....

You can ask people to pay up for their favorite request. It sounds like a joke but I wonder if someone is willing to spend money so they can see the Goobly Goocker in Showdown 64.

 

[Fizanko]

Making paid mod for such old roms that are run on an emulator, that's obviously never going to work, as said in this thread only donations may have a chance to get you money, assuming of course you can deliver on your side but for something so niche don't expect to quit your day job anytime as there's few chances you'll ever get any donations actually.

Now if you want to model/texture/animate wrestling stuff and get paid for it, you better either try to get in contact with a company that produce wrestling games and see if they hire (make sure to have a very impressive portfolio), or join/get hired by some indie devteam wanting to develop a wrestling game.

Very likely difficult as wrestling games aren't apparently a big enough market for most game developers as you see extremely few games in that genre, even in the indie side out of Pro Wrestling X or Action Arcade wrestling and probably some other minor title i have never heard about it seems no indie dev is interested in creating a wrestling game.

So basically wrestling games are rather small market, making it even harder to get a job in working on such game.

 

[The NekoMancer]

Yeah... I think your best shot at making money with your talent is creating an indy game. Building a small team and come up with an Idea. Doesn't even have to be mind blowing, just fun and creative.

The staff hasn't shown any signs of approval to having links to donation methods in your profile, and thus I am reluctant to support this idea despite proposing it.

Good luck, man.