Women in the WWE

[Maximo]

This has been a heated up discussion in the shout box and I thought, eh might as well talk about it here.

First up, I love women wrestling, to be honest I love wrestling in general no matter what style it is, one of my favorite matches is a FMW retirement match for one its Joshi wrestlers, it was brutal, told a story and had all the moves that makes your mind go crazy even when you know who's going to pick up the win.

Secondly, the basic WWE style doesn't suit female wrestling,

It did in 2001-around 2004, but there was a reason for that, around that period all the wrestlers had the space to develop as characters whilst still having the opportunity to be higher on the card.

The could do any move, any promo as long as Vince had faith it could make money, because the WWE didn't have the one set top "guy" or any real competition so they had freedom to shift the roster round at anytime.

We're not in that era anymore,
You can't have moves that land on the head without protection.
You can't have people speaking out of there heart without someone proof reading it and editing it.
You can't have wrestling matches based around kicks and submissions because that's not how WWE has ever been unless the submission or kick is a finisher or the incoherent build up to one.


What you have left is apart from highflying moves (easy to botch) or brawling (hard to master)
Is power moves which have the chance making the person land on their head if it botches (which is a no go)

Quick name me 4 people who weigh less then 150 pounds who can lift people enough times to match the old WWE quota of suplexs, powerbombs and the like?
If you thought of someone,
Were they male?
Were they female?
Did they get released for being "to fat"?

Shit its not like they even get any limelight in videogames anymore,
You have click on 1 out a 100ish icons to bring up their own menu in which they can only be selected for certain matches.

TL/DR
The WWE had almost 5 years of just models with yearly contracts.
And now people are complaining now that there are women who are trying hone their craft and actually want to wrestle?

Give the ladies a break, you can't expect them to become wrestling goddess with less then 5 minute time limits.

 

[savage101]

You come up with solid points for debate. The woman at NXT have good matches because they give the woman time to wrestle. I think they should give the girls at RAW the chance to wrestle for 15 minutes like they do some of the guys. There matches are terrible short. I'd rather watch the girls slow down and try to tell a story; rather than some of the silly 6 man shit tags I've seen here as of late. I think in this era mostly all of them can wrestle with the exception being a few of the girls. The girls are really more or less eye candy for short segments which is sad. I'd rather have them be eye candy and watch them have a good match also.

 

[Tired]

Women's wrestlers have always had a disadvantage; they have to look good too. Male wrestlers can afford to look like Goldust, Big Show or the Wyatt Family. Women have always had to be good looking as well as good wrestlers.

That was until Sable left the WWE the first time. Whether we like it or not, Sable is possibly the biggest drawing woman of all time. At the very height of the attitude era, Sable was selling nearly as many tickets as Stone Cold Steve Austin or D-Generation X. After Sable left the first time, the WWE had some of the best women wrestlers in the world (for that time). But none of them were bringing in the money that Sable did. Not even Chyna, who was in the middle of becoming a household name. This taught the WWE that looks were more important. So they went on a very nasty habit of hiring swimsuit models instead of women who wanted to be wrestlers.

But for every potential Trish Stratus there has been, there have been too many Rochelle Loewons. These are girls who only sign with the WWE because they think the extra publicity will launch their acting careers. But they are not even willing to learn how to act or learn a script. So they leave to "start their own fashion line", and then the only way they can make money is to do shoot interviews about how the WWE "didn't use them properly". How can fans take women's wrestling seriously if we only get to see matches featuring women who don't want to wrestle?

The worrying thing is, it is possible to turn pampered princesses into decent wrestlers. Trish Stratus, Torrie Wilson and Brooke Tessmacher all had no interest in wrestling. But look how good they became once they started putting effort into it. I was one of the few people who touted Eve as a future multi-time champion. The first time I saw her in a match, she was wearing a zip up top that was too small for her, meaning that she couldn't lift the zip up past her boobs. I wrote her off immediately as a joke. But in the actual match, she was technically sound and agile. I believe that she could have been the next Trish Stratus if she hung around for longer.

Some people pretend that Alicia Fox and Nikki Bella are starting to get good. Alicia's move set is centered around hair-pulling, an armbar and the fact that she can lift her foot up high. You can replace her name with so many others and will still be right, e.g. Stacy Kiebler. Nikki Bella is only different because she learns one power move for each match, but then forgets it once the match is over.

Any woman who is larger is a sideshow attraction. She becomes a "monster" with limited potential, and there can never be 2 of them in the same company. Who is the largest opponent that Awesome Kong/Kharma went up against? Is there any diva near Havoc's size? On that point, has there ever been a Natalya vs Beth Phoenix match? As a result, companies run out of ideas for them quickly and reduce them to enhancement talent.

One criticism that I will always have; I have never seen a true feat of strength in a women's match. Realistically, female wrestlers tend to be really light, so less strength is required to do power moves.

There is a lot of female talent right now, but it is not being used properly. Stephanie's promos on Raw last longer than the Divas matches. And both WWE or TNA only build the division around 4 women at the most at any one time. Not always the right ones.

Right now, we have AJ, Paige*, Layla, Natalya*, Charlotte*, Becky Lynch, Sasha Banks, Madison Rayne, Angelina Love, Bayley and Gail Kim. So how come NXT is producing most of the watchable women's matches? It can't be just because they are the only ones with Sara Del Rey as a trainer.

 

[The NekoMancer]

The problem is exactly that... WWE only hires girls that look good. You can't tear this point apart saying they did hire Kharma a few years ago, she barely even appeared on TV.

I don't give two shits about watching pretty girls in a wrestling show. I watch wrestling for wrestling/storylines, not for pretty girls with little clothes. If I wanted that, there's plenty of other products that offer the exact same thing.

Also, they CAN put up a good match within five minutes, and don't need to only stick to power moves. There's a lot of moves that don't require a lot of power. They're maybe too afraid to use them or taking them because they'd get hurt. But, hey, this is wrestling, if you don't wanna get hurt, don't get in the business.

On top of all of that... Have you seen most of these women in the WWE take an Irish Whip? They never run properly. Well, they run like what they are... "girls". But that's the point. In the ring they're not "girls", They're athletes. Female athletes, but athletes after all.

 

[Maximo]

I agree man,

But as long as Vince and his cronies still run it they won't stop hiring models instead of wrestlers.

"They're maybe too afraid to use them or taking them because they'd get hurt."
That's what I'm saying, with the limitations they have put on the WWE (not NXT) women, they are left with shit that looks god damn awful,
They can't have the brutal looking injury likely moves (due to the reality shows that need their faces intact otherwise they lose the shallow viewers)
And they can't have chain wrestling because the WWF re"trained" fans that isn't what is Pro "wrestling" entertainment is,

"Entertainment" is brawling then specials reversed until someone takes 1 (or 3) and the the 3 count happens or someone interferes, its worked for them in the past.

Also remember the bigger rings in the WWE also make the women look tiny compared to in the smaller indy rings where they look like athletes,
Which also when a big move of theirs happens and it only takes up 1/100 of the ring it doesn't make as much of an impact for the crowd.

Alot of people CAN put on a good match in 5 minutes, but those are people who have/had been in the indies for what? a decade at least?

Even then the less time they have, the more they try to captivate in a short period and that leads to more botches, less practice with a huge audience doesn't help that.

I like NXT, it great seeing so much wrestling by modern legends of the indy/puro circuits, but will the ladies and gents get on the main/Smackdown/Raw roster (which will limit them to trademark moves) and stay there?

I want them to, we all do, we all want them to get bigger paychecks and be proud of watching the WWE but sometimes we have to sit back and enjoy that our kids can watch NXT, which means them watching and learning WRESTLING.

Until WWE changes again as right now its gimmicks everywhere, but it will be soon.


And yeah, those Irish whips...I want to hold my head in shame everytime I watch them with someone else.

 

[Deleted User]

Irish whips. Okay, that's almost universal.

@ Victor: You didn't see Kharma because of Kharma. Not because of WWE. She got pregnant, and then decided to not be a wrestler anymore. She was going to be pushed to the freaking moon.

She's not even that big, anymore:

Spoiler: click to toggle

Alicia Fox is ENTERTAINING. Watch her feud with Paige during her first run and tell me that gimmick sucked. She can handle herself in the ring to not injure anyone, has improved GREATLY over the last 8 months and now can hold her own. No, she's not a technical master at all, but we can't judge ANY wrestler simply based on what they can do in-ring.

I like characters and good storylines just as much as I like good wrestling, so I can deal witht he fact not every woman wrestler can't go like Natty or AJ can.

Here's the problem with the 2002-2004 era: It was soft-core porn. You had some fantastic wrestlers (just like today), but most of the time it came down to the puppies. It doesn't, anymore. The Diva's Title is one of the most prominently showcased in the entire show, am I the only person to notice this? With AJ's historic run, she made the Diva's a title go from a pink butterfly no one cared about to one of the most important belts in the company.

Unlike even the IC or US title, along with the World Heavy Chanmpionship, the Diva's title is also the only other title that has a long-term storyline invested into it. That's why when a Nikki or an Eva get into the title picture or are even prominently in a story line, as Nikki is now, people get mad. That's REAL heat. They're utilizing it, too. If anyone saw Eva Marie on NXT recently, they know what I'm talking about. They know how shitty she is, and they are using it to get some white heat.

Nikki in the picture is a continuation of AJ's original pipe-bomb gimmick. It's the original feud that made the Diva's title interesting, and throwing her into it gets her real heat, because she sucks at wrestling. She does, however, have the entitled bitch character down and has improved vastly on the mic, scores above her sister. Watching AJ kick her ass will be a pleasure, even if it turns out to be a swerve and the heel takes the gold. The chase will be on, the stage is set for the chase.

As for the Intercontinental title.... they're still making shit up week to week, same as the U.S. title.

I haven't seen a bra and panties match in YEARS. Or a stupid fucking pillowfight, or a lot of other dumbass gimmick matches. The main roster Divas are prominently featured on all shows considering their smaller roster. Regularly we will have two different women matches on Raws, now. Superstars has Diva's matches that are fun to watch, as does Main Event and NXT.

I'm not saying it doesn't need improvement, it obviously does, but that holds true for the entire company, however, I think we're hitting a really hot time in 2014, and it shows. I still want Natty vs AJ in a half hour iron-woman match. Book it.[/SPOILER]

 

[Tired]

It is possible to put on a good match in 5 minutes, but you can't build a division around matches of that length. It may be fine for someone like Goldberg or Brock Lesnar to finish an opponent in 2 minutes every single week. But if everyone in the division is only putting in 2 minutes of ring-work each EVERY week, you are not going to see much from anyone.

People are too hard on the attitude and ruthless aggression eras. Trish Stratus started off as a bimbo would couldn't find ring gear that would cover her boobs and buttocks. But then in 2002 she was having decent Hardcore matches with Jazz and Victoria. That's another thing, people like Jazz, Victoria, Lita, Trish and Molly Holly used to feud over the titles at the same time AND have story lines. Now a days, only 2 divas can feud over the titles, while the rest of the division takes turns to job to the challenger and champion in between title matches. TNA and NXT do the same thing, but most of them (except Velvet Sky) get longer and are encouraged to put on more of story.

I used to work briefly as a women's wrestling trainer for an Irish indy. I got the job because I got an opponent's valet over to the point where both women and paid to see her stand up to me. I quit after a few months because the company made me hate the job. I had these talented girls ringing me on a daily basis, begging me to come and teach them new things. But then the guys would convince their girlfriends to work a few matches because it was "fun" and "easy money". These girlfriends only did it to please their boyfriends and didn't want to get hurt. They wouldn't even come to learn how take a fall safely. And the management did not want to upset the male wrestlers, so always booked the dedicated girls to get squashed by the girlfriends, remembering that the girls could not even take a bump. It made me sick to constantly see hard-working women not get a proper chance because some guy wanted to get laid. Another thing that upset me is that they screwed up my chance to meet and work with Becky Lynch.

Anyone on here for a while knows I have been an impassioned advocate for women's wrestlers. I was one of the first to get behind AJ, Eve Torres, Melina, Natalya, Naomi and the Bella Twins as in-ring performers. I just watched the first episode of British Bootcamp, and I feel Nikki Storm is the most ready and am backing her to win. So it really does upset me that there is so many great women's wrestlers right now, but it is the Velvet Skys (who used to be a great technician) and Nikki Bellas get the TV time.

---

By the way, AJ vs Natalya in an iron-woman match? Yes please.

 

[Deleted User]

Isn't it awesome that our complaints about the Diva's division mirror a lot of complaints we have about the men's?

The times, they are a-changin'.

 

[The NekoMancer]

Kharma's push was going to be shorter than Hornswoggle, and you know it.

 

[Deleted User]

Bullshit.

She was a Triple H guy.

 

[Tired]

I disagree. Kharma would've ploughed through the Diva's division, struggled to beat the Divas Champion (who would have been a model, not a wrestler), and then would finally win after the 3rd pay-per-view attempt. She would hold the title for six months before dropping it to another model on Raw / Smackdown, then lost the pay-per-view rematch. Then she wouldn't be seen in the title picture again until her contract expired, where she would've chosen not to renew her contract.

 

[Deleted User]

Nah, she would have dropped the Diva's belt to AJ, and then went on to beat a man for the U.S. Title.

Book it.

 

[Tired]

P.G. Era - Women can't compete against men... unless he is in drag or is comedic enhancement talent. For that to happen, Heath Slater or Zack Ryder would have to win the US title.

 

[The NekoMancer]

Since 2000, has there ever been an ugly woman holding the Women's/Divas title?

Chyna doesn't count. the WWF/E got her some surgery for her to "stop looking like a guy".

 

[Tired]

 

[Maximo]

How are Steph, Nikki and Alicia ugly?
They've all got wolf whistled by fans as if they were seen by a certain character.

Spoiler: click to toggle

Besides Wippleman doesn't count and Jazz...I can't...you have one.[/SPOILER]

 

[Tired]

Mae Young got wolf-whistled in her final years. And she was never hot, despite the lies that the WWE commentators are meant to say.

 

[Maximo]

Mae Young is irrelevant.

All people mentioned, even if you don't find their faces attractive (that's your decision, though seriously?) have changed there body to get hired and keep their jobs, be it nose jobs, boob jobs, wigs, hair colouring, whatever.

 

[Deleted User]

<blockquote class='quote\\_blockquote'><dl><dt>The Reverend</dt><dd>Oct 25 2014, 06:28:51 PM</dd></dl><div>P.G. Era - Women can't compete against men... unless he is in drag or is comedic enhancement talent. For that to happen, Heath Slater or Zack Ryder would have to win the US title.[/quote]She showed up in the Rumble. Kharma wasn't a woman, she was a monster. It would have worked.

Plus, she'd also be a black, female woman with a legitimate Men's Title, like Chyna before her. I thought it could happen before she became pregnant. Bummed me out when she quit, she could go in the ring. In this day and age, it could have really set new paths for wrestling. Plenty of great feuds for her to have, too. Sure, she would win it from a Ryder or Slater, and then defend it against a Ryback or a even Jericho. You know he would do it, he did it before!

I just think the women's divisions gets waaaay too much hate, but at least it's because the fans want legitimate feuds and matches, instead of more puppies.

edit: Spelling and shit

 

[The NekoMancer]

Women's division gets the hate it deserves. No more, no less.

I think we're not asking for something stupid, we're asking for what's meant to be done. Hell, we're not even asking for them to push anyone just because we like them. It's plain simple. I want good quality wrestling in a good quality wrestling show.